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I have been following the issue of PPE and the lack of N95 masks in Canada as well as the US and Europe. Some local hospitals have only about 10 days supply left. No new stock and nothing supposedly sent from 3M. I am attaching an article from a local journalist claiming China had witheld info about the pandemic and at the same time had former residents, how living in other countries, buy up and ship over 2 billion n95 masks to china before the pandemic was publicized. Faulty N95 masks sent to Canada was a ‘contractual’ issue that was fixed, China says
 

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Now the pressure is on for regions to reopen, it is very distressing to hear of areas where pressure is being exerted to manipulate or suppress numbers of cases. Florida, Georgia and Texas being 3 noted in this article. Clearly politics coming before safety. How many will get sick or die as a result? States accused of manipulating COVID-19 statistics to make situation look better
The opposite is also happening. I have read articles where physicians say they are being pressured to attribute cause of death to the virus when in reality it was not the cause of death, statistics being manipulated to show the virus is much worse than it really is. Who knows why there is this pressure to under report and to over report.
 

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Now the pressure is on for regions to reopen, it is very distressing to hear of areas where pressure is being exerted to manipulate or suppress numbers of cases. Florida, Georgia and Texas being 3 noted in this article. Clearly politics coming before safety. How many will get sick or die as a result? https://kutv.com/news/coronavirus/states-accused-of-manipulating-covid-19-statistics-to-make-situation-look-better
I do have a question. Are you distressed only by the downward manipulation of data or are you equally concerned with overreporting?

Here is the problem with the article. You presume that the data she wanted to include would accurately reflect the impacts of Covid 19. We all have a much better understanding of Covid today than we did 8 weeks ago. We know the data was manipulated to inflate the number of Covid deaths (continues in some States here in the USA). That point is inarguable.

If Ms. Jones, for whatever reason, wanted to continue to include data that artificially inflated the numbers, which we all know is irresponsible, would you retain her if you were her boss? Would you count on her to provide reliable data to the populous you govern? That is what happened here Phil. She refused to consider the scientific facts and wished to continue to include data scientifically unattributable to Covid but rather to Cancer, heart disease, etc.

Not nearly as nefarious as the article would suggest but rather much more about a data scientist with an agenda she would not abandon despite evidence contrary to her position. Data scientists are supposed to provide a single, reliable source of truth and she refused to do her job in that regard. We have an open government here in Florida. You can read the email exchanges that led to the offer to allow her to resign, or alternatively be fired. She wanted to include data that was scientifically unsupported to inflate the impacts of Covid. That is why she is fired. I think your distress is misplaced at least in regard to Florida.
 

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Regarding Florida and the reporting on the pandemic, this is what Gov. DeSantis said to the media when questioned about his response. He pulls no punches.

 

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I do have a question. Are you distressed only by the downward manipulation of data or are you equally concerned with overreporting?
I am distressed by any manipulation of data or by manipulation of definitions which can result in distortion.

The old saying "figures never lie" doesn't get quoted too much anymore partly due to the corollary of "liars figure".

I try to look for figures that result from legitimate sources, but even many of those are flawed due to the fact that they have several sources providing info to them. It's tough to avoid. In North America, each state or province uses different criterial for compilation and dissemmination of figures, so any national numbers will be affected accordingly.

I'm not too sure how overreporting can take place. Under reporting is obvious due to the nature of the virus and limitations on testing. Then you get into the issue of the debate about whether someone died of covid or died with covid. While a significant proportion of people dying with covid are in their 70's 80's or 90's, there is a much broader distribution. In two of the hospitals in Ottawa, the most severe cases of people in ICU are in their 40s and 50s.

There remain a number of people who don't believe that covid is real, or that it has any real effect. Many such people changed their minds when UK PM Boris Johnson entered ICU, but significant groups remain. NY city has been hit the hardest of any city in NA, but things could have been worse. Unfortunately things could have been much better had most countries acted ealier such as in Taiwan and Japan.

In Canada, we have a PM who is using this situation to his advantage politically. He has accused some of the opposition parties of being racist due to criticism of WHO and our federal response (or lack thereof initially) as our Chief Medical officer is of Chinese ancestry. He ignores the fact that people are not criticising her heritage but her recommendations. In New Brunswick, thye shut down earlier that other provinces and had greater success as a result.

It will be a long time before anyone has a complete understanding of this virus, and I am sure things will be spun and used for partisan purposes. In the meantime, we have generally avoided having our hospitals being overwhealmed; lets hope that continues. Again on a local basis, many of our hospitals are between 90-100% capacity even with elective surgeries being cancelled (many were at 120-140% capacity before the pandemic). If a second wave comes through before capacity can handle it, results wil be even worse, including those with other medical conditions that are not being treated due to measures to control the virus.
 

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I am distressed by any manipulation of data or by manipulation of definitions which can result in distortion.

The old saying "figures never lie" doesn't get quoted too much anymore partly due to the corollary of "liars figure".
We are on the same page, just different paragraphs! Agree. Distortion is unacceptable at any level. The public is left in the dark when that happens.

This is the issue as I see it. Data, ideally, should speak for itself. So the question marks should have their own category in the data set. We all see it at work all of the time (e.g. we don't know why these customers came here but they did = unattributable...and it is okay not to know). Data should show that to us but everyone is refusing to include it as a category, each for their own reasons. Including it as a separate category predicates questioning, and nobody (Govt., CDC, WHO, States, Provinces, large employers) seems to want questions right now. So we are left with lumping it in or tossing it out, either way the stats are skewed.

I appreciate the civil dialogue, Phil! 1st beer is on me next time in Ottawa!
 

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If I were to go off the road on my bike and strike a tree killing myself....and I tested positive for the virus, I would be a Covid-19 death. That is how some states are classifying the deaths of those who tested positive. One of the reasons it is being done that way is financial. One physician stated that reimbursement for a virus death is greater than for another classification. So it all boils down to money and in the case of the political parties, to political power.
 

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...she wanted to include data that was scientifically unsupported...that is why she is fired...
Luckily, or unfortunately, depending on your political persuasion, our President can't be fired for the same offense. 💩
 

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Luckily, or unfortunately, depending on your political persuasion, our President can't be fired for the same offense. 💩
The President does not publish in journals nor in heath department statistics. His are all anecdotal with occasional references to studies, such as the French study on HCQ. When I read published statistics and journal articles I don't want to find inaccurate data, there is enough of that on the nightly news shows.
 

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The President does not publish in journals nor in heath department statistics. His are all anecdotal with occasional references to studies, such as the French study on HCQ. When I read published statistics and journal articles I don't want to find inaccurate data, there is enough of that on the nightly news shows.
OK. Carry on then. 🍺
 

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This is the issue as I see it. Data, ideally, should speak for itself. So the question marks should have their own category in the data set. We all see it at work all of the time (e.g. we don't know why these customers came here but they did = unattributable...and it is okay not to know). Data should show that to us but everyone is refusing to include it as a category, each for their own reasons. Including it as a separate category predicates questioning, and nobody (Govt., CDC, WHO, States, Provinces, large employers) seems to want questions right now. So we are left with lumping it in or tossing it out, either way the stats are skewed.
The statisticians dont seem to have a means of capturing that info that can be presented. Years ago when I worked for Ma Bell, I had to classify all my work: residential, cable, aerial, buried and then we had "other". Under "other" there were several classes, including "other". so much of covid would be classified as "other" "other"...
 

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If I were to go off the road on my bike and strike a tree killing myself....and I tested positive for the virus, I would be a Covid-19 death. That is how some states are classifying the deaths of those who tested positive. One of the reasons it is being done that way is financial. One physician stated that reimbursement for a virus death is greater than for another classification. So it all boils down to money and in the case of the political parties, to political power.
What state would do such a classification? I just don't see it.

How would there be a financial advantage for a state to classify a death as covid related? From what I have seen, Trump and the GOP dominated senate have resisted any funding or reimbursement for covid testing or financial assistance to states be they Democratic or Republican dominated.
I do agree much activity seems to be about political power, and as an outsider, I am aghast at how Trump has been handling things.
 

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The President does not publish in journals nor in heath department statistics. His are all anecdotal with occasional references to studies, such as the French study on HCQ. When I read published statistics and journal articles I don't want to find inaccurate data, there is enough of that on the nightly news shows.
Of course not: he is not qualified. Using his own words, he makes things up on the spur of the moment and calls "fake" whenever someone shows him his own words!

Everyone lies from time to time, especially politicians. There has never been a politician like Trump where you assume that anything he said is either a direct lie, make up or not based on fact or reality.
 

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What state would do such a classification? I just don't see it.

How would there be a financial advantage for a state to classify a death as covid related? From what I have seen, Trump and the GOP dominated senate have resisted any funding or reimbursement for covid testing or financial assistance to states be they Democratic or Republican dominated.
I do agree much activity seems to be about political power, and as an outsider, I am aghast at how Trump has been handling things.

This is a quote from the above linked article."'Earlier this month, Illinois’s top health official explained that any victim diagnosed with the novel coronavirus would be classified as a COVID-19 death—regardless of whether it contributed to the patient’s death.
“If you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had Covid at the same time, it’s still listed as a Covid death,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, the director of Illinois's Department of Public Health, explained to reporters."


And just one more. "As Minnesota lawmaker and longtime family practitioner Dr. Scott Jensen recently observed, hospitals are incentivized to pressure physicians to include COVID-19 on death certificates and discharge papers, since the CARES Act increases Medicare payments to hospitals treating COVID-19 victims."

I have read the same in other articles from other states as well as physicians saying the samething in other states in the U.S.

When we get down to the reasons it is money for the medical industry and power for government and politicians and the poor unfortunate patients that have the severe cases of the disease are just pawns.
 

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What state would do such a classification? I just don't see it.

How would there be a financial advantage for a state to classify a death as covid related?
Vulcan, I just had to add one more quote that directly addresses the question you posed asking how would there be a financial advantage to a Covid-19 death. It is from the same article I linked above.

"Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for—if they're Medicare—typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000,” said Jensen, whose claim was fact-checked by USA Today. “But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

Remember, the greater majority of deaths with the virus are those in the medicare age group.
 

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This is a quote from the above linked article."'Earlier this month, Illinois’s top health official explained that any victim diagnosed with the novel coronavirus would be classified as a COVID-19 death—regardless of whether it contributed to the patient’s death.
“If you died of a clear alternate cause, but you had Covid at the same time, it’s still listed as a Covid death,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, the director of Illinois's Department of Public Health, explained to reporters."


And just one more. "As Minnesota lawmaker and longtime family practitioner Dr. Scott Jensen recently observed, hospitals are incentivized to pressure physicians to include COVID-19 on death certificates and discharge papers, since the CARES Act increases Medicare payments to hospitals treating COVID-19 victims."

I have read the same in other articles from other states as well as physicians saying the samething in other states in the U.S.

When we get down to the reasons it is money for the medical industry and power for government and politicians and the poor unfortunate patients that have the severe cases of the disease are just pawns.
Based on what you listed, a couple of thoughts.
1) I'm glad I don't live in Illinois
2) Having hospitals run as "for profit" is problematic and I am glad I live in a country where, despite problems with the system, everyone has access to medical services.
 

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Vulcan, I forget the figure at the moment, but I was listening to NPR and they were speaking about the health care "industry" in the U.S. and that really struck me. I don't believe we should approach health care as an industry. When I think of industry, what comes to mind is production, a means to generate profit. On the program they gave the percentage of the gross domestic product and I was astounded that it commanded such a large percentage of our GDP. I just looked and the latest figures were for 2017 and it was 17.1%, and as a comparison, defense spending was only 3.1% of the GDP. We hear a lot of debate about the amount spent on defense in the U.S. but as a percentage of the GDP, it is only one fifth of what we spend on the healthcare "industry". In my opinion we definitely are NOT getting our proper return on investment when it comes to health care in this country. I for one do not see where the money is going, it is definitely not going to health care of the citizens, especially if one does not have insurance. I wish we did have a system like Canada has and those I have spoken with about it feel as you do, they would not trade it.
 
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