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...................... Is that still part of the MSF BRC curricullum.

I opted out of the second day of the MSF course. I knew I would not be able to do the right turn from a stop. I am now at about a 50% success rate on that maneuver.
Don’t know, i never took the MSF course.

Sounds like some private instruction might help. Try utahridered.com or ask at the dealerships.
 

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Thank you for the information on brake levers. I adjusted my hand position toward the inside of the grip. This seems to provide more discrete throttle adjustments. In this position, there is less reach to the lever.
Dave Moss Tuning runs a channel at Dave Moss Tuning with lots of adjustment information.
The smartest two questions I've heard ask several riders who never adjusted their clutch and brake:
"What's the first thing you do at a car dealer's when get in to test drive it?"
"If it's that important to be comfortable in a four wheel stable vehicle for a 10 minute test drive, why have you owned a high performance two wheel speedster for two years without getting comfortable?"
 

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I opted out of the second day of the MSF course. I knew I would not be able to do the right turn from a stop. I am now at about a 50% success rate on that maneuver.
Sounds like the time is ripe for MSF IRC (Intermediate Rider's Course) - one day, less classroom, more range work, AND they encourage you to use your own bike. The sooner the better, in Vince Lombardi's opinion.

Especially with the IRC, Stick around for the parts you fear you'll be the worst at, for two reasons:
1) You'll never see these students again, who cares if the laugh behind my back? Besides, I don't know if they might be worse than me? This is the safest, best place to mess up.
2) After years of watching experienced riders who's built up bad habits and new riders who don't have a clue, most MSF coaches have learned what long winded great advice NOT to give, and what short simple tips tend to help. They are usually great at seeing little things the rider and his best well meaning friends can most often miss.
 

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This morning I worked on left turns. Part way through the turn, the wheel turns more to the left and the motorcycle wants to fall over. So, it seems the bike is too slow at this point.

I am confused. The MSF coach yelled at me to turn the handlebars, and when I watch the videos, the coach is emphasizing lean and weight shift. I am using rear brake.

Suggestions?
 

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This morning I worked on left turns. Part way through the turn, the wheel turns more to the left and the motorcycle wants to fall over. So, it seems the bike is too slow at this point.

I am confused. The MSF coach yelled at me to turn the handlebars, and when I watch the videos, the coach is emphasizing lean and weight shift. I am using rear brake.

Suggestions?
o_O Give it a bit more gas and/or find another coach, maybe? :unsure:
 

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Three actions, all have effect:

-turn the handlebar less or more
-give less or more gas
-lean less or more by shifting your body

When all three elements are in balance you have done it. If you turn more the handlebar, you have to compensate it by giving more gas and/or moving your body to the opposite side.
 

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Agreed, a good coach, like Vince Lombardi, usually points out what's right and focuses practice on what's right until they can tell you're ready to add more. Trying to practice everything and work in corrections is very hard, it reinforces muscle memory of any wrong action at the same time you're trying to figure out what's not right.

Vince said practice does NOT make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. That does NOT mean everything must be perfect at once and then practiced. It means practice what's right until it's so much a part of you it won't be changed by adding more.

Sorry if I'm redundant, but we are way too badgered with the idea that if we keep banging away at the same exercises we will somehow start getting better results. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
 

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Agreed, a good coach, like Vince Lombardi, usually points out what's right and focuses practice on what's right until they can tell you're ready to add more. Trying to practice everything and work in corrections is very hard, it reinforces muscle memory of any wrong action at the same time you're trying to figure out what's not right.

Vince said practice does NOT make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. That does NOT mean everything must be perfect at once and then practiced. It means practice what's right until it's so much a part of you it won't be changed by adding more.

Sorry if I'm redundant, but we are way too badgered with the idea that if we keep banging away at the same exercises we will somehow start getting better results. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.
After one day of my second attempt at the MSF BRC, I decided to not return. Instead, I rode around the parking lot i use for practice. I considered selling the motorcycle. The email reply from the coach suggested private lessons on a bicycle, and also suggested that quitting is a viable option. ("Not riding a motorcycle is not the end of the world" were his words).
The problem for me is that I finish what I start.
I have a friend who rides bulls in rodeos. As he sauntered off toward the bucking chutes, he said, "I'm gunna tell my bull what's comin'." The bull out weighs him by almost two tons. Even, so his plan is to conquer the beast for eight seconds.
You said it well. We learn to master a skill, not by doing to skill over and over, but by mastering the fundamentals. I decided to coach myself. To amuse myself, I used airplane terminology. Thrust, angle of bank, and speed in knots.
So far, I have added 375 miles to the total mileage on my motorcycle. Parking lot miles.
Here is what I can do:
Right and left turns within a 24 foot square.
Cone weave
Right turn from a stop followed by U-turn within 24 feet
I can also do what I describe as 'square turns.' On a few of the square turns i feel the handlebar hit the stops.
While this does not seem significant to most here, for me this is a huge improvement.
 

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Read "A Twist of the Wrist," by Kevin Code. You don't even have to read the parts specific to racing. The fundamentals in the piece will resonate with you since you are a pilot. Keep us posted.
 

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Congratulations on your perseverance(y)...slow speed control can be difficult, (body weight balancing is critical, but; elevated straight line speeds are easy...how many "noobs", with no concept of steering (countersteering: push right; go right & vice versa), have run off the road or into a wall? Remember that a two wheeled vehicle (bicycle or motorcycle): Must lean to turn, (just physics) at anything above "foot paddling" speed. As someone said; "do not overthink it"...I've always thought that experienced bicycle riders would have little trouble adapting to a motorcycle...so do not take that coach's comment in a negative way. Riding/touring with a group some years ago, revealed one who seemed to be unable to overcome a fear of falling...especially when leaning over...(perhaps never rode a bicycle much and/or insufficient training? Our tires are designed to maintain traction beyond what we may understand).That person gave it up, perhaps for the better?
Safely negotiating curves, ("slow, look, roll"...MSF: slow for the turn, look thru the turn for the exit, as best you can, eyes UP all the way...keep looking,... then roll on the throttle as appropriate), becomes a truly enjoyable aspect of motorcycling, But: once confidence builds...intelligence requires us to NOT push our personal boundaries of safety. Only go as fast as you can to safely stop or avoid whatever surprise might be awaiting, out of sight, including a decreasing radius (tighter) curve.
Whenever stopping, Straighten your handlebar to prevent your bike from falling over...especially in slow speed practice...(I'm no expert...and all learning should never cease);).
Best Wishes going forward!:)
 

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xx

After reading thise posts

I thought proper forum etiquette was to see if a question had been asked in the past before posting a new thread.

I was told to use 9 mph, and it seems that this speed is in the area where the bike shifts, so based on comments here, I am now using a slower speed with plans to reduce it further.

I used manual this morning and it worked well.

I am getting more comfortable at slow speeds.

Which way should I lean in a tight turn?
Footnote: when practicing tight turns like a u-turn or figure 8's, (which helps develop confidence & control), it can help to shift your weight (butt) a bit, to outside of turn, to maintain balance...rather than lean at such slow speeds, your bike remains relatively upright & you turn your handlebar in the direction you want to go...as opposed to higher speeds where the front wheel stays relatively in line with the rear as you lean...push right, go right & vice versa.
Manual mode/first gear should work fine. I use sport mode for almost all of my usual riding, paddle shifting when I sometimes choose to.
 

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Footnote: when practicing tight turns like a u-turn or figure 8's, (which helps develop confidence & control), it can help to shift your weight (butt) a bit, to outside of turn, to maintain balance...rather than lean at such slow speeds, your bike remains relatively upright & you turn your handlebar in the direction you want to go...as opposed to higher speeds where the front wheel stays relatively in line with the rear as you lean...push right, go right & vice versa.
Manual mode/first gear should work fine. I use sport mode for almost all of my riding, upshifting or downshifting when I sometimes choose to.
I believe I am leaning to the outside of the turn more than an actual weight shift. so, I will work on that. I’m also putting pressure on the outboard peg
 

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Congratulations on your perseverance(y)...slow speed control can be difficult, (body weight balancing is critical, but; elevated straight line speeds are easy...how many "noobs", with no concept of steering (countersteering: push right; go right & vice versa), have run off the road or into a wall? Remember that a two wheeled vehicle (bicycle or motorcycle): Must lean to turn, (just physics) at anything above "paddling" speed. As someone said; "do not overthink it"...I've always thought that experienced bicycle riders would have little trouble adapting to a motorcycle...so do not take that coach's comment in a negative way. Riding/touring with a group some years ago, revealed one who seemed to be unable to overcome a fear of falling...especially when leaning over...(perhaps never rode a bicycle much and/or insufficient training? Our tires are designed to maintain traction beyond what we may understand).That person gave it up, perhaps for the better?
Safely negotiating curves, ("slow, look, roll"...MSF: slow for the turn, look thru the turn for the exit, as best you can, eyes UP all the way...keep looking,... then roll on the throttle as appropriate), becomes a truly enjoyable aspect of motorcycling, But: once confidence builds...intelligence requires us to NOT push our personal boundaries of safety. Only go as fast as you can to safely stop or avoid whatever surprise might be awaiting, out of sight, including a decreasing radius (tighter) curve.
Whenever stopping, Straighten your handlebar to prevent your bike from falling over...especially in slow speed practice...(I'm no expert...and all learning should never cease);).
Best Wishes going forward!:)
Congratulations on your perseverance(y)...slow speed control can be difficult, (body weight balancing is critical, but; elevated straight line speeds are easy...how many "noobs", with no concept of steering (countersteering: push right; go right & vice versa), have run off the road or into a wall? Remember that a two wheeled vehicle (bicycle or motorcycle): Must lean to turn, (just physics) at anything above "paddling" speed. As someone said; "do not overthink it"...I've always thought that experienced bicycle riders would have little trouble adapting to a motorcycle...so do not take that coach's comment in a negative way. Riding/touring with a group some years ago, revealed one who seemed to be unable to overcome a fear of falling...especially when leaning over...(perhaps never rode a bicycle much and/or insufficient training? Our tires are designed to maintain traction beyond what we may understand).That person gave it up, perhaps for the better?
Safely negotiating curves, ("slow, look, roll"...MSF: slow for the turn, look thru the turn for the exit, as best you can, eyes UP all the way...keep looking,... then roll on the throttle as appropriate), becomes a truly enjoyable aspect of motorcycling, But: once confidence builds...intelligence requires us to NOT push our personal boundaries of safety. Only go as fast as you can to safely stop or avoid whatever surprise might be awaiting, out of sight, including a decreasing radius (tighter) curve.
Whenever stopping, Straighten your handlebar to prevent your bike from falling over...especially in slow speed practice...(I'm no expert...and all learning should never cease);).
Best Wishes going forward!:)
I have yet to take my motorcycle off of the parking lot., Except for the time I dropped it off at the shop. I think it will be fun to try some curves. A while back I grabEd the front lever without the handlebars being straight and almost fell, I believe I described this experience. A little bit of thrust got me out of it. This motorcycles is rather agile, once you get used to it. It’s rather strange though sometimes I’ll be doing just fine stopping where I want to and once in a while everything just goes wrong
 

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I have a friend who rides bulls in rodeos. As he sauntered off toward the bucking chutes, he said, "I'm gunna tell my bull what's comin'." The bull out weighs him by almost two tons. Even, so his plan is to conquer the beast for eight seconds.
Love it! Watch Fernando if you have some spare tissues.
At least our bull bucks exactly the way we tell it to.

To amuse myself, I used airplane terminology. Thrust, angle of bank, and speed in knots.
I like that because so much balance is exactly like that without rudder control. If you're eyes are closed when the airplane turns you can hear changes in airflow and engines but you don't feel like you're turning. When you look outside you see by the horizon you're in a bank, but still can't feel the sharpness of the turn. The pilot has a bubble gauge that shows if horizontal g-forces are too much or too little for the current turn so she/he can add or subtract bank to keep you comfortable. Can anyone here tell us what that gauge is called?

While this does not seem significant to most here, for me this is a huge improvement.
Don't cheat yourself, that's huge. Many riders NEVER get confident enough to keep their feet up while steering is at full lock, and some are happy going 50 thousand miles on all types of terrain without learning to make a one shot U-turn on a 30 foot wide country road.
There's nothing wrong with them learning to pull over and wait for clear traffic for a 3 point turn or using a parking lot to turn around. You have a leg up on the art of riding if you can look at most roads as 6 to 10 feet feet more than you need and just relax, watch traffic instead of the edge of the road, look back where you want to go and let the bike and muscle memory follow your lead.
 

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Love it! Watch Fernando if you have some spare tissues.
At least our bull bucks exactly the way we tell it to.


I like that because so much balance is exactly like that without rudder control. If you're eyes are closed when the airplane turns you can hear changes in airflow and engines but you don't feel like you're turning. When you look outside you see by the horizon you're in a bank, but still can't feel the sharpness of the turn. The pilot has a bubble gauge that shows if horizontal g-forces are too much or too little for the current turn so she/he can add or subtract bank to keep you comfortable. Can anyone here tell us what that gauge is called?


Don't cheat yourself, that's huge. Many riders NEVER get confident enough to keep their feet up while steering is at full lock, and some are happy going 50 thousand miles on all types of terrain without learning to make a one shot U-turn on a 30 foot wide country road.
There's nothing wrong with them learning to pull over and wait for clear traffic for a 3 point turn or using a parking lot to turn around. You have a leg up on the art of riding if you can look at most roads as 6 to 10 feet feet more than you need and just relax, watch traffic instead of the edge of the road, look back where you want to go and let the bike and muscle memory follow your lead.
I can start a 90° turn at lock, however, I tend to roll out. I am not yet comfortable doing a u-turn at full lock. But now that I’ve experienced a little bit of it I think I will be able to do it with more work- Where I noticed the full lock is when I do a 90° turn and I feel the handlebars hit the stops.
yesterday I practiced on the DMV test site. It is next to a long section of road that does not get much traffic so I ventured out. I ran into the situation that required me to make a U-turn however, there was gravel on both sides and I opted to do a walking turn The road at that point was narrower than usual, and I was concerned about the gravel.
On my way back to the practice site I missed the turn and ended up toward an intersection that was quite busy. So I opted to do a U-turn. In this case there was plenty of pavement.
I also had to make a right turn at a stop sign. This brief experience demonstrated the importance of being able to make a 90° turn and a U-turn.
doing a 90° turn in a parking lot is different than doing a 90 return at a stop sign with traffic. Yes, the geometry might be the same however there’s a lot more stress at a stop sign with traffic
 

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Here's another great example of someone out there, knows her ability, riding mostly safe, even if a little distracted.
Misses her turn (back it up about 10 seconds to see that), has plenty of road for an 18-24 ft U-turn, no traffic - She does the smarted thing possible. No sweat, not nervous, just swings a little wide into the next left turn to make it around without stopping and get back where she wants to go. "Like a ballerina" she says, well I don't think it looks that good, but in function and purpose she safely does what she needed to do.

Are there slow speed drills could make her a better rider? Sure. Could she be safer with more practiced emergency skills, or by not vlogging while riding? Sure. She probably would stop the vlog if serious traffic issues occur, I hope.
Is she safe enough with the skills she has for the rides she chooses to take? Sure.

Sometimes you train and practice so much, then you take it down a notch, go out there, and just enjoy life.

 

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Footnote: when practicing tight turns like a u-turn or figure 8's, (which helps develop confidence & control), it can help to shift your weight (butt) a bit, to outside of turn, to maintain balance...rather than lean at such slow speeds, your bike remains relatively upright & .................
Massively disagree. The only reason to shift your butt is when trying to keep the bike more vertical because you are leaned over past 45 degrees in a MotoGP race. This guy is already having enough issues with balance that the last thing he needs to be doing is trying to move his butt around, adding to his balance control issues, instead of just focusing on his turn.

Rob - some other good YouTube videos to watch are Ride Like a Pro Jerry Palladino.

Steve
 

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We all may our have various methods of control. This was shown to us in MSF training years ago, where mostly every every exercise is @ low/slow speed. I do this when making a tight u-turn, feet on pegs, head up w/eyes looking where I want/need to go, "to keep the bike more vertical". That said; I do not claim to be a Rider Coach.:)
 
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