CTX 700 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
2016 Honda NM4 – Mechanical failure (05/2019)
(-How a simple $8.10 shifting pin caused over $700 in repairs-)



    • Vehicle was having difficulty shifting from 2nd to 3rd at certain RPM.
    • Problem degenerated to bike shifting out of gear coming off freeway.
    • Bike unable to shift back into neutral.



Hello! When I originally purchased my Honda NM4 in 2016 I searched the internet everywhere for information before making the purchase. I didn't find much but I found enough to help make my decision and bought the brand new bike from a local dealership. Very comfortable ride, loved the style of it, and if I was single I would have been picking up girls like I did back in my youth. Everybody would stop and ask me about the bike. Now that said there's some issues with the machine I want to get out there to people doing any research on this particular bike. I wish I would have been told about this.


To start with, this bike has the electronics of a car. You decide if that's good or bad.

The vehicle was taken to an authorized Honda dealership for diagnosis and repair. Once able to read the trouble codes in the computer, the dealership was unable to determine the issue.


Following the Honda repair manual step by step to diagnose the problem based on what the trouble codes did tell us it became clear that this was a mess. The actual process of trying to diagnose the issue only involved replacing one part after another part. Example: Replace part A. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part B. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part C, and so on.
The issue with that method of fixing anything is obvious, you pay for the labor and parts for each individual repair job. The real kick in the shorts comes when you realize that you are quite possibly throwing out good parts you did not need to replace, or purchase. Honda does NOT allow for parts to be installed on a vehicle for testing purposes. Once you put it on the bike, you've bought it whether or not you needed it.
On to the problem.
This whole process took over 22 days. 05/09/19 to 05/31/2019. This was just a stupid amount of time to figure out what a problem is for any type of vehicle. Especially a “modern” vehicle. My old 2001 BMWR1200C which had over 167K miles on it, was easier to diagnose and I used to think it was the pinnacle of motorcycle tech. I'd take it in for work, the techs would plug it into a computer, the issue was discovered and repaired. I'd usually get the bike back in two or three days depending on the availability of the parts. Then there is this DCT ( Dual Clutch Transmission) monster of an NM4.


At the dealership, they contacted the Honda Tech support almost immediately. Let me say up front that the service guys were great. I didn't feel for two seconds I was dealing with incompetent or dishonest mechanics and I've dealt with those types before. At first it was thought to just be my battery. We replaced it. I needed a new battery anyway. But it wasn't low voltage or anything like that. Next we replaced a sensor. That cleared some of the trouble codes but the shifting problem persisted. A Honda Tech came out to the dealership personally to look at the bike and explained to the techs that with the DCT bikes there has been an occasional issue with a bolt called the “Shift drum center bolt” which can be located on page 65 of chapter 11 of the Honda service manual.
It was then determined that indeed the issue with the gears shifting was due to this bolt coming loose. Not broken, not damaged, just loose ! I even have the replaced bolt in my possession. It looks great.
Since the bike was already apart the Honda tech recommended the bolt be replaced along with other o-rings. The parts were cheap and the labor already done so the tech was correct in wanting the parts replaced which I agreed to.
In looking at the old center bolt, there is absolutely no damage to it. It just came loose.


The dealership then applied mechanical adhesive to the bolt when they installed the new one. It won't come loose a second time. In fact the techs were clear that if that simple little thing would have been done at the factory then this bolt would NOT HAVE COME LOOSE ON ITS OWN over time.


So my beef now is that a part that didn't even break instead just came loose because somebody who designed the machine never thought of it coming loose. The fact that this issue is now happening with other vehicles with a DCT is troublesome. Another problem I have with this vehicle is that Honda designed this machine and despite a Honda trained tech armed with the repair manual in hand the issue could not be diagnosed in a reasonable amount of time and required an obscene amount of labor ($100 an hour) to figure out what the issue was. In the end it took a senior tech directly from Honda to come out and explain the problem and that he'd even seen other vehicles with the same problem. Before buying one of these ask yourself what happens when another little thing goes out on this model? Another $700 repair bill to find a simple problem? I'm asking myself that lately. Now before any of you might say that all vehicle's have their issues, or that any motorcycle with 58,000 miles on it will show some wear and tear I will point out again that there is no systematic method of diagnosing this problem other than going from one step to the next while replacing parts along the way that you may not need. I'll also refer back to the BMW I mentioned earlier. That technology is over FIFTEEN years older than this DCT bike and despite that the computer systems they had back in 2001 were good enough to pinpoint issues on the bike. This 2016 NM4 system couldn't do that. It took a very experienced factory tech to come out to the dealership. On top of that it was only because that particular Honda tech had already seen other DCT machines with the same loose bolt issue that he knew what the problem was.


So the grand total for this loose bolt was: $891.32
We do need to subtract the new battery, I was in need of one and planned on replacing that later this year anyway so that was $139.99. Subtracting that leaves us with a grand total of $751.33 for a loose bolt. Think on that folks. $750 bucks to figure out a bolt came loose that should not have ever come loose in the first place and could have been prevented by the factory just using a simple bolt adhesive. That's what these new high tech Honda NM4's offer us dedicated riders. I went through the entire Honda manual and there is nothing that would help a tech figure this one out. They would just go from one part to the next part until they find it. I now have a “350 degree sensor” that cost me $137.72 sitting in a box. A new one was put on the bike but concerning this old one we just don't know if it is bad or good, they can't test it if you can believe that. I literally may have spent $137.72 on a part I didn't need, but the repair manual said replace it and if that didn't work go on to the next step.
On the issue of labor, the guys at the dealership did me a solid and kept it at a flat 4.5 hours but I know full well they put in more time than that and even had that other factory tech come out. If the dealership had tried to stick me with the actual time spent it would have been double. I took the kid a twelve pack just to say thanks for his efforts.
I'm sure somebody might say I should notify Honda about this. For the record I already have. A rep left a message on my phone one day and after telling them what day they could reach me for a chat (let alone via e-mail), I never heard back from them. If I do I'll update this thread.

As for me, I've owned multiple bikes over the thirty-five years I've been riding. I have over 350,000 miles riding in a saddle. Most of that on just that old BMW but another 58K on this NM4. The rest of those miles are spread out over Yamaha's, Kawasaki's, a Suzuki and a Harley. While those are all gone I did manage to hang on to my 1978 Honda 750A Hondamatic. Ironically that bike is the original DCT in a way, the ancestor to the NM4.

I hope this was helpful. If you find your NM4 is not shifting correctly then that bolt may be your problem. Maybe you can save yourself the time and wasted money with this information. If you are somebody looking at buying a NM4, the choice is yours.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
Sorry about your difficulty and Thank you for posting your info here. (I remember the 750A Hondamatic, I bought my '78 CX500 brand new & worked for a short time @ the dealership where I got it, but never rode the 750A.)
I believe that this issue, (possibly a DCT wide defect? NM4 and/or CTX700), has been reported here, with some discussion.
If you have not already, I urge you to make a report to safercar.gov (NHTSA). It may be noteworthy that the factory Rep. was perhaps aware of the cause, while the shop tech.'s were not, indicating a possible lack of & therefore a need of a service bulletin to dealers.
If this is a widespread improper assembly issue (not simply "occasional"), it needs to be addressed by Honda, perhaps with a recall. At the same time, I would recommend further contact w/Honda, informing them of your action/notice to NHTSA.:|
Thanks again & please keep in touch. (search thread; Dual Clutch Transmission Problems)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Ugh, sorry to hear it. Reminds me of the '99 Ford Taurus we had. Weird shifting issues. Dealer replaced transmission 3 times, still couldn't figure it out. They flew in an engineer from Dearborn to look at it. It was a $20 sensor (or something like that cost wise).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Hey thanks for the suggestion about the NTHSA




I had the bike go out on an off ramp the day I took it to the dealership, it could have been ugly for me if I didn't have someplace safe to coast to.


I've got the impression Honda isn't interested it talking about a loose bolt. God forbid they offered to pay for some of these insane repairs bills that occur after dealerships spend hours trying to figure out the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Sorry about your difficulty and Thank you for posting your info here. (I remember the 750A Hondamatic, I bought my '78 CX500 brand new & worked for a short time @ the dealership where I got it, but never rode the 750A.)
I believe that this issue, (possibly a DCT wide defect? NM4 and/or CTX700), has been reported here, with some discussion.
If you have not already, I urge you to make a report to safercar.gov (NHTSA). It may be noteworthy that the factory Rep. was perhaps aware of the cause, while the shop tech.'s were not, indicating a possible lack of & therefore a need of a service bulletin to dealers.
If this is a widespread improper assembly issue (not simply "occasional"), it needs to be addressed by Honda, perhaps with a recall. At the same time, I would recommend further contact w/Honda, informing them of your action/notice to NHTSA.:|
Thanks again & please keep in touch. (search thread; Dual Clutch Transmission Problems)
I second this advise but would go a step further. Send a registered letter to the President of Honda in the U.S. and tell his or her about your problem. If that doesn't work, I would file a suit in small claims court for the costs, include your time and the beer you bought the mechanic.

Another option is to write to a major paper or m/c magazine, especially if you can find one that did an article on the NM4. Bad publicity is not something they want to deal with.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
Hey thanks for the suggestion about the NTHSA




I had the bike go out on an off ramp the day I took it to the dealership, it could have been ugly for me if I didn't have someplace safe to coast to.


I've got the impression Honda isn't interested it talking about a loose bolt. God forbid they offered to pay for some of these insane repairs bills that occur after dealerships spend hours trying to figure out the issue.
Searching safercar.gov for complaints by vehicle (year, make & model; CTX 700) there are a few (2014/2015), (2 actual recalls, 1 for early abs problem other for the well known starter relay switch) & two complaints about a "surging/fast idle" issue that has been mentioned here. None about the loose tranny bolt (& that probably would be considered safety related.) Caveat; gov. may not do anything unless multiple incidents are filed, indicating it's not just an isolated case. I do hope that it is a rare occurance but it would be nice to know if there is any contributing factor causing the bolt to loosen, other than any lack of thread locking agent, & how many Honda has dealt with.
You may win in small claims If you can document/prove (dealer tech witness?) everything, especially what info the factory Rep. provided. This may show that a service bulletin, at the least, should have been issued.
Personally, I believe Honda quality to be above average, though no manufacturer can be perfect.
Stay safe & be well to all.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
2016 Honda NM4 – Mechanical failure (05/2019)
(-How a simple $8.10 shifting pin caused over $700 in repairs-)



    • Vehicle was having difficulty shifting from 2nd to 3rd at certain RPM.
    • Problem degenerated to bike shifting out of gear coming off freeway.
    • Bike unable to shift back into neutral.



Hello! When I originally purchased my Honda NM4 in 2016 I searched the internet everywhere for information before making the purchase. I didn't find much but I found enough to help make my decision and bought the brand new bike from a local dealership. Very comfortable ride, loved the style of it, and if I was single I would have been picking up girls like I did back in my youth. Everybody would stop and ask me about the bike. Now that said there's some issues with the machine I want to get out there to people doing any research on this particular bike. I wish I would have been told about this.


To start with, this bike has the electronics of a car. You decide if that's good or bad.

The vehicle was taken to an authorized Honda dealership for diagnosis and repair. Once able to read the trouble codes in the computer, the dealership was unable to determine the issue.


Following the Honda repair manual step by step to diagnose the problem based on what the trouble codes did tell us it became clear that this was a mess. The actual process of trying to diagnose the issue only involved replacing one part after another part. Example: Replace part A. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part B. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part C, and so on.
The issue with that method of fixing anything is obvious, you pay for the labor and parts for each individual repair job. The real kick in the shorts comes when you realize that you are quite possibly throwing out good parts you did not need to replace, or purchase. Honda does NOT allow for parts to be installed on a vehicle for testing purposes. Once you put it on the bike, you've bought it whether or not you needed it.
On to the problem.
This whole process took over 22 days. 05/09/19 to 05/31/2019. This was just a stupid amount of time to figure out what a problem is for any type of vehicle. Especially a “modern” vehicle. My old 2001 BMWR1200C which had over 167K miles on it, was easier to diagnose and I used to think it was the pinnacle of motorcycle tech. I'd take it in for work, the techs would plug it into a computer, the issue was discovered and repaired. I'd usually get the bike back in two or three days depending on the availability of the parts. Then there is this DCT ( Dual Clutch Transmission) monster of an NM4.


At the dealership, they contacted the Honda Tech support almost immediately. Let me say up front that the service guys were great. I didn't feel for two seconds I was dealing with incompetent or dishonest mechanics and I've dealt with those types before. At first it was thought to just be my battery. We replaced it. I needed a new battery anyway. But it wasn't low voltage or anything like that. Next we replaced a sensor. That cleared some of the trouble codes but the shifting problem persisted. A Honda Tech came out to the dealership personally to look at the bike and explained to the techs that with the DCT bikes there has been an occasional issue with a bolt called the “Shift drum center bolt” which can be located on page 65 of chapter 11 of the Honda service manual.
It was then determined that indeed the issue with the gears shifting was due to this bolt coming loose. Not broken, not damaged, just loose ! I even have the replaced bolt in my possession. It looks great.
Since the bike was already apart the Honda tech recommended the bolt be replaced along with other o-rings. The parts were cheap and the labor already done so the tech was correct in wanting the parts replaced which I agreed to.
In looking at the old center bolt, there is absolutely no damage to it. It just came loose.


The dealership then applied mechanical adhesive to the bolt when they installed the new one. It won't come loose a second time. In fact the techs were clear that if that simple little thing would have been done at the factory then this bolt would NOT HAVE COME LOOSE ON ITS OWN over time.


So my beef now is that a part that didn't even break instead just came loose because somebody who designed the machine never thought of it coming loose. The fact that this issue is now happening with other vehicles with a DCT is troublesome. Another problem I have with this vehicle is that Honda designed this machine and despite a Honda trained tech armed with the repair manual in hand the issue could not be diagnosed in a reasonable amount of time and required an obscene amount of labor ($100 an hour) to figure out what the issue was. In the end it took a senior tech directly from Honda to come out and explain the problem and that he'd even seen other vehicles with the same problem. Before buying one of these ask yourself what happens when another little thing goes out on this model? Another $700 repair bill to find a simple problem? I'm asking myself that lately. Now before any of you might say that all vehicle's have their issues, or that any motorcycle with 58,000 miles on it will show some wear and tear I will point out again that there is no systematic method of diagnosing this problem other than going from one step to the next while replacing parts along the way that you may not need. I'll also refer back to the BMW I mentioned earlier. That technology is over FIFTEEN years older than this DCT bike and despite that the computer systems they had back in 2001 were good enough to pinpoint issues on the bike. This 2016 NM4 system couldn't do that. It took a very experienced factory tech to come out to the dealership. On top of that it was only because that particular Honda tech had already seen other DCT machines with the same loose bolt issue that he knew what the problem was.


So the grand total for this loose bolt was: $891.32
We do need to subtract the new battery, I was in need of one and planned on replacing that later this year anyway so that was $139.99. Subtracting that leaves us with a grand total of $751.33 for a loose bolt. Think on that folks. $750 bucks to figure out a bolt came loose that should not have ever come loose in the first place and could have been prevented by the factory just using a simple bolt adhesive. That's what these new high tech Honda NM4's offer us dedicated riders. I went through the entire Honda manual and there is nothing that would help a tech figure this one out. They would just go from one part to the next part until they find it. I now have a “350 degree sensor” that cost me $137.72 sitting in a box. A new one was put on the bike but concerning this old one we just don't know if it is bad or good, they can't test it if you can believe that. I literally may have spent $137.72 on a part I didn't need, but the repair manual said replace it and if that didn't work go on to the next step.
On the issue of labor, the guys at the dealership did me a solid and kept it at a flat 4.5 hours but I know full well they put in more time than that and even had that other factory tech come out. If the dealership had tried to stick me with the actual time spent it would have been double. I took the kid a twelve pack just to say thanks for his efforts.
I'm sure somebody might say I should notify Honda about this. For the record I already have. A rep left a message on my phone one day and after telling them what day they could reach me for a chat (let alone via e-mail), I never heard back from them. If I do I'll update this thread.

As for me, I've owned multiple bikes over the thirty-five years I've been riding. I have over 350,000 miles riding in a saddle. Most of that on just that old BMW but another 58K on this NM4. The rest of those miles are spread out over Yamaha's, Kawasaki's, a Suzuki and a Harley. While those are all gone I did manage to hang on to my 1978 Honda 750A Hondamatic. Ironically that bike is the original DCT in a way, the ancestor to the NM4.

I hope this was helpful. If you find your NM4 is not shifting correctly then that bolt may be your problem. Maybe you can save yourself the time and wasted money with this information. If you are somebody looking at buying a NM4, the choice is yours.
Can you tell me the part number if you have it available? Thanks!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
I have the same problem with my wife ‘15 CTX700n,i have to bring her bike 2x with same issue, They thought its faulty neutral switch so they replaced it but didnt work,so they replace EFI module,it worked, we picked the bike but i didn't test drive it so when i got home i test drive it,it worked a couple of miles then same issue occured,called them after 2 days and was advised to return bike to the shop.after 2 weeks they called i allowed the technicians to put some miles on it to make sure its really fixed before we travel 3hrs again(by the way i have an extended warranty,a 3rd party one thats why i have to return it to the dealership where i got my bike so that theres no hassle for out of pocket or reimbursement etc,so i paid only $50 for participation) we picked up the bike test drove it in regular “d”mode and “s” mode,i asked the tech if they replaced the engine completely because it feels different its pulls and changed gear very smooth and the power it pulls waaaayyyy better, the tech said its possible that the “shift star bolt “was loose from the start.i never drove any other DCT bikes so i wont know the difference.but i guess it really fixed now.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
I have the same problem with my wife ‘15 CTX700n,i have to bring her bike 2x with same issue, They thought its faulty neutral switch so they replaced it but didnt work,so they replace EFI module,it worked, we picked the bike but i didn't test drive it so when i got home i test drive it,it worked a couple of miles then same issue occured,called them after 2 days and was advised to return bike to the shop.after 2 weeks they called i allowed the technicians to put some miles on it to make sure its really fixed before we travel 3hrs again(by the way i have an extended warranty,a 3rd party one thats why i have to return it to the dealership where i got my bike so that theres no hassle for out of pocket or reimbursement etc,so i paid only $50 for participation) we picked up the bike test drove it in regular “d”mode and “s” mode,i asked the tech if they replaced the engine completely because it feels different its pulls and changed gear very smooth and the power it pulls waaaayyyy better, the tech said its possible that the “shift star bolt “was loose from the start.i never drove any other DCT bikes so i wont know the difference.but i guess it really fixed now.
Where are you located?
May I ask; did you buy it new? How many miles when failure occurred? Is the bike always shifted into neutral before shutting off the engine? Just curious. Thanks;)
I would encourage you to file a complaint w/NHTSA, go to safercar.gov. It seems that, while the factory service reps are familiar with this problem, many dealer service departments are not and they should be. Even if this loose shift bolt is a relatively uncommon occurrence(?), one might think that a technical service bulletin should be issued from Honda, in order to avoid the costly misdiagnosis and potential accident/injury.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
Thanks to Ghostwolfe and Earlleebird for posting their experiences. Maybe it will save someone some money if the Honda Tech without a clue working on their bike decides to google “Honda CTX 700 DCT shift problems” and the first thing that comes up is this forum and threads like this mentioning the loose shift pin. Possibly he will check that first before replacing perfectly good parts like neutral switches and $800.00 PGM FI UNITS for no good reason. Looking at the work orders I would never go back to that service dept again. Costly, misdiagnosis chasing the neutral switch. If he would have just followed the procedure to get the bike out of gear and back to neutral he would have seen that the switch works. All of the tests for the switch involving the computer are based on the transmission being in neutral and he would have found that both tested correctly and are good. You can buy the 38770-MJF M22 PGM-FI Unit from Partszilla retail for $548.81. They got it wholesale from Honda and charged you $808.55 with a discount.

You might notice the parts listed on pulling the RH cover and tightening the shift star bolt include “Drum Gearshift” which part # is Drum ASSY Gearshift $159.51. This is the entire drum assy that you would have to split the cases to install and I believe the PN# is for the standard shift model not the DCT? Solenoid Linear $198.05 and body $62.69. There were no issues with the solenoid, it was a loose shift pin? If they hit your insurance up for these parts it looks like insurance fraud. Just my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Thanks for the replies folks. I wish I would have been more active on the internet myself. This thread and others like it I started on other sites have been gaining traction. This issue doesn't happen to everybody for sure, but it really deserves a service bulletin from Honda. It would save their customers $$$$ by helping their service techs understand and fix the problem in a timely manner.


Honda is supposedly calling me Friday. We'll see if they live up to the "Helpful Honda" people motto of theirs or not.





To everybody who has experienced this issue, take the time and open a ticket with the NHTSA. If even one person gets hurt due to this issue with the DCT then it's one too many. It's an easy fix and preventable by Honda.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
Thanks for the replies folks. I wish I would have been more active on the internet myself. This thread and others like it I started on other sites have been gaining traction. This issue doesn't happen to everybody for sure, but it really deserves a service bulletin from Honda. It would save their customers $$$$ by helping their service techs understand and fix the problem in a timely manner.


Honda is supposedly calling me Friday. We'll see if they live up to the "Helpful Honda" people motto of theirs or not.





To everybody who has experienced this issue, take the time and open a ticket with the NHTSA. If even one person gets hurt due to this issue with the DCT then it's one too many. It's an easy fix and preventable by Honda.
Plus one.
Inquiry by NHTSA to Honda may result in a TSB/technical service bulletin. Hopefully, no injuries ever result, but who knows what could happen.:|
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I was checking my e-mail and realized I never updated this. I always thought it rude whe na person doesn't come back and finish the thread, leaves the interested people hanging.


So I spoke with Honda. They acknowledged the issue but said the bike being out of warranty the bill was mine. I got that. What I really wanted was a TSB to go out to all the dealerships. I was told only that the people responsible for that have been informed. I really didn't get anywhere with them.



I used to investigate traffic accidents, something I didn't feel the need to share earlier. I know how hard it is to recreate and figure out what may have caused a crash. Was it operator error? Was it mechanical?


As riders, there has always been a bias against us in that "The rider screwed up." except in very obvious cases.



Now, if this bike's DCT had failed minutes earlier while I was moving at a good clip on the freeway, gotten hit, and didn't survive.... there wouldn't be any real way to determine what happened. Nobody would ever think to look at what is left of the bike, let alone find a loose bolt that caused the DCT to fail.



I don't have the resources anymore to try and look for any accidents involving a DCT equipped bike. The only thing that would help stand out with a search was if the vehicle was rear ended, since if the bike lost power that is something that would be a possibility, that the cars behind it would hit it. Not much of a useful parameter.



All that said, it's my last post. I wish I would have know about this site before hand. I'll be ghosting around it from now on.


As for Honda, they were not the "helpful Honda" people. I warned them about how people could get hurt. I doubt they are worried about that non-event happening. Especially if it would be hard to prove. They don't want to acknowledge the issue in writing is my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
2016 Honda NM4 – Mechanical failure (05/2019)
(-How a simple $8.10 shifting pin caused over $700 in repairs-)



    • Vehicle was having difficulty shifting from 2nd to 3rd at certain RPM.
    • Problem degenerated to bike shifting out of gear coming off freeway.
    • Bike unable to shift back into neutral.


Hello! When I originally purchased my Honda NM4 in 2016 I searched the internet everywhere for information before making the purchase. I didn't find much but I found enough to help make my decision and bought the brand new bike from a local dealership. Very comfortable ride, loved the style of it, and if I was single I would have been picking up girls like I did back in my youth. Everybody would stop and ask me about the bike. Now that said there's some issues with the machine I want to get out there to people doing any research on this particular bike. I wish I would have been told about this.


To start with, this bike has the electronics of a car. You decide if that's good or bad.

The vehicle was taken to an authorized Honda dealership for diagnosis and repair. Once able to read the trouble codes in the computer, the dealership was unable to determine the issue.


Following the Honda repair manual step by step to diagnose the problem based on what the trouble codes did tell us it became clear that this was a mess. The actual process of trying to diagnose the issue only involved replacing one part after another part. Example: Replace part A. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part B. If that doesn't fix the problem then replace part C, and so on.
The issue with that method of fixing anything is obvious, you pay for the labor and parts for each individual repair job. The real kick in the shorts comes when you realize that you are quite possibly throwing out good parts you did not need to replace, or purchase. Honda does NOT allow for parts to be installed on a vehicle for testing purposes. Once you put it on the bike, you've bought it whether or not you needed it.
On to the problem.
This whole process took over 22 days. 05/09/19 to 05/31/2019. This was just a stupid amount of time to figure out what a problem is for any type of vehicle. Especially a “modern” vehicle. My old 2001 BMWR1200C which had over 167K miles on it, was easier to diagnose and I used to think it was the pinnacle of motorcycle tech. I'd take it in for work, the techs would plug it into a computer, the issue was discovered and repaired. I'd usually get the bike back in two or three days depending on the availability of the parts. Then there is this DCT ( Dual Clutch Transmission) monster of an NM4.


At the dealership, they contacted the Honda Tech support almost immediately. Let me say up front that the service guys were great. I didn't feel for two seconds I was dealing with incompetent or dishonest mechanics and I've dealt with those types before. At first it was thought to just be my battery. We replaced it. I needed a new battery anyway. But it wasn't low voltage or anything like that. Next we replaced a sensor. That cleared some of the trouble codes but the shifting problem persisted. A Honda Tech came out to the dealership personally to look at the bike and explained to the techs that with the DCT bikes there has been an occasional issue with a bolt called the “Shift drum center bolt” which can be located on page 65 of chapter 11 of the Honda service manual.
It was then determined that indeed the issue with the gears shifting was due to this bolt coming loose. Not broken, not damaged, just loose ! I even have the replaced bolt in my possession. It looks great.
Since the bike was already apart the Honda tech recommended the bolt be replaced along with other o-rings. The parts were cheap and the labor already done so the tech was correct in wanting the parts replaced which I agreed to.
In looking at the old center bolt, there is absolutely no damage to it. It just came loose.


The dealership then applied mechanical adhesive to the bolt when they installed the new one. It won't come loose a second time. In fact the techs were clear that if that simple little thing would have been done at the factory then this bolt would NOT HAVE COME LOOSE ON ITS OWN over time.


So my beef now is that a part that didn't even break instead just came loose because somebody who designed the machine never thought of it coming loose. The fact that this issue is now happening with other vehicles with a DCT is troublesome. Another problem I have with this vehicle is that Honda designed this machine and despite a Honda trained tech armed with the repair manual in hand the issue could not be diagnosed in a reasonable amount of time and required an obscene amount of labor ($100 an hour) to figure out what the issue was. In the end it took a senior tech directly from Honda to come out and explain the problem and that he'd even seen other vehicles with the same problem. Before buying one of these ask yourself what happens when another little thing goes out on this model? Another $700 repair bill to find a simple problem? I'm asking myself that lately. Now before any of you might say that all vehicle's have their issues, or that any motorcycle with 58,000 miles on it will show some wear and tear I will point out again that there is no systematic method of diagnosing this problem other than going from one step to the next while replacing parts along the way that you may not need. I'll also refer back to the BMW I mentioned earlier. That technology is over FIFTEEN years older than this DCT bike and despite that the computer systems they had back in 2001 were good enough to pinpoint issues on the bike. This 2016 NM4 system couldn't do that. It took a very experienced factory tech to come out to the dealership. On top of that it was only because that particular Honda tech had already seen other DCT machines with the same loose bolt issue that he knew what the problem was.


So the grand total for this loose bolt was: $891.32
We do need to subtract the new battery, I was in need of one and planned on replacing that later this year anyway so that was $139.99. Subtracting that leaves us with a grand total of $751.33 for a loose bolt. Think on that folks. $750 bucks to figure out a bolt came loose that should not have ever come loose in the first place and could have been prevented by the factory just using a simple bolt adhesive. That's what these new high tech Honda NM4's offer us dedicated riders. I went through the entire Honda manual and there is nothing that would help a tech figure this one out. They would just go from one part to the next part until they find it. I now have a “350 degree sensor” that cost me $137.72 sitting in a box. A new one was put on the bike but concerning this old one we just don't know if it is bad or good, they can't test it if you can believe that. I literally may have spent $137.72 on a part I didn't need, but the repair manual said replace it and if that didn't work go on to the next step.
On the issue of labor, the guys at the dealership did me a solid and kept it at a flat 4.5 hours but I know full well they put in more time than that and even had that other factory tech come out. If the dealership had tried to stick me with the actual time spent it would have been double. I took the kid a twelve pack just to say thanks for his efforts.
I'm sure somebody might say I should notify Honda about this. For the record I already have. A rep left a message on my phone one day and after telling them what day they could reach me for a chat (let alone via e-mail), I never heard back from them. If I do I'll update this thread.

As for me, I've owned multiple bikes over the thirty-five years I've been riding. I have over 350,000 miles riding in a saddle. Most of that on just that old BMW but another 58K on this NM4. The rest of those miles are spread out over Yamaha's, Kawasaki's, a Suzuki and a Harley. While those are all gone I did manage to hang on to my 1978 Honda 750A Hondamatic. Ironically that bike is the original DCT in a way, the ancestor to the NM4.

I hope this was helpful. If you find your NM4 is not shifting correctly then that bolt may be your problem. Maybe you can save yourself the time and wasted money with this information. If you are somebody looking at buying a NM4, the choice is yours.
I had the exact same issue with my 2015 CTX700 DCT with only 4,000 miles. Yes, $700 dollars later and over 60+ days in the shop with multiple calls to the factory to diagnose the problem, I finally got it back. Really frustrating issue over a simple manufacturing oversight.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
554 Posts
I had the exact same issue with my 2015 CTX700 DCT with only 4,000 miles. Yes, $700 dollars later and over 60+ days in the shop with multiple calls to the factory to diagnose the problem, I finally got it back. Really frustrating issue over a simple manufacturing oversight.
Thank you for sharing.(y) May I ask...are you the original owner, If not, for how long/miles? Have/do you shift to neutral before shut off? Any other thoughts/comments? Thanks again & Welcome!;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
Honda should have issued a TSB on checking the possibility that the shift pin is loose or broken and that this is not documented in the service manual troubleshooting flow charts when diagnosing DTC shift issues a long time ago. You can find references to the shift pin issue on NC700 / 750 and Integra forums. If the mechanic kept this in mind when starting the diagnosis he would not waste so much time chasing possible computer and sensor issues and realize that it is a simple mechanical failure in the shift mechanism. I would think by following the service manual a competent mechanic could access the pin, add loctite, and torque it to spec then reassemble in less than an hour.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
665 Posts
I wish there were a video out there showing how to do just that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
526 Posts
The service manual documents it pretty well. Remove right crankcase cover page 12-57 / 5 min. Remove dual clutch page 12-66 / 5 min. Remove reduction gear cover page 12-70 / 5 min. Remove gear shift linkage page 12-73 /5 min. See picture bottom page 12-73 arrow #3 shift drum center bolt. Whoot there it is. Times are approximate. I could be wrong. I am not a motorcycle mechanic. It always looks easier than it is.:eek:
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top