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...You have to sell you electric to APS, and in return they sell it back to you at a higher price. It is illegal to go off the grid...
Not sure of current pricing, but in CA rooftop solar ships its output back to the grid, then you buy what you need from the grid. This is ostensibly a safety issue so that when the utility turns off the juice for whatever reason they know it's really off. I don't know how that affects battery storage. It's not illegal here to go off the grid.

...They use to install and supply the panels for free, buying back only that which was not used. That was stopped...
Seriously, free solar hardware? Who would NOT want that?

...One fact is immutable. A corporation that has control will not allow itself to not increase its profits. There is no benevolence, only quarterly profit...
But that's the essence of capitalism, right? Anybody who owns stocks or mutual funds has to believe in this.

...California buys its electric from AZ Polo Verde and because of the increase of LEDs, better consumer use and panels, the profits are suffering so they again want to increase their rates...
CA is a big state. Different parts of the state buy power from different places depending on demand, weather, and how each region is hooked up to the grid. And different regions of CA have different power providers. For example, the Sacramento area has for-profit PG&E (famous for starting wildfires and blowing up cities), plus not-for-profit ratepayer owned utilities such as Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD, best acronym for a government agency) and Roseville Electric. The latter are significantly cheaper than PG&E. Fewer executive mouths to feed? I have rooftop solar, and SMUD wants to raise our rates because they say we're not paying our "fair share" compared to those poor souls who couldn't afford to install panels. It's not a done deal, but it's coming.

...Where is that hydrogen engine?
When Schwarzenegger was governor (DO NOT get me started) he yakked a lot about hydrogen infrastructure, but didn't do anything about it. My wife had a motor pool car that was a Toyota hydrogen powered car that everyone called the Hydrogen Bomb. It was a nice little Corolla-sized car; comfy, good handling, good fuel economy. But there was only one place across the river where you could fill it up, so you had to really watch that fuel gauge.

BTW, this is a long post because we finally got some good tree planting weather yesterday, and today all I can move without pain is my typing muscles.
😀
 

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Not sure of current pricing, but in CA rooftop solar ships its output back to the grid, then you buy what you need from the grid. This is ostensibly a safety issue so that when the utility turns off the juice for whatever reason they know it's really off. I don't know how that affects battery storage. It's not illegal here to go off the grid.
This is nonsense. People with generators don't "output back to the grid".
 

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In Arizona what started out as a good idea, now has become a headache. You have to sell you electric to APS, and in return they sell it back to you at a higher price. It is illegal to go off the grid. They use to install and supply the panels for free, buying back only that which was not used. That was stopped. One fact is immutable. A corporation that has control will not allow itself to not increase its profits. There is no benevolence, only quarterly profit. California buys its electric from AZ Polo Verde and because of the increase of LEDs, better consumer use and panels, the profits are suffering so they again want to increase their rates. Where is that hydrogen engine?
CA buya some (not all) of its Electric from AZ. We also get it from OR, WA, and lot is produced here by old fashioned Gas turbines, Hydro electric dams, wind farms. and a couple of nuclear sites.All under the watchful eye of CAL-ISO. They learned their lesson back in 2000 when Enron pulled that snooker shot on them.
 

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This is nonsense. People with generators don't "output back to the grid".
Actually we do sell back to the Electric provider who sells us electriicity. It's based on time of day usage. If I produce more juice than I use in the afternoon, then PG&E buys it back at the highest rate. After 8pm, we buy from them at a lower rate. Supply and demand curve. Those who don't have solar are buying from PG&E at the highest rate in the afternoon (Think higher temps, and greater need for A/C). We plan our days to use washers and dryers, and the high draw appliances either early in the AM or later at night.
 

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Actually we do sell back to the Electric provider who sells us electriicity. It's based on time of day usage. If I produce more juice than I use in the afternoon, then PG&E buys it back at the highest rate. After 8pm, we buy from them at a lower rate. Supply and demand curve. Those who don't have solar are buying from PG&E at the highest rate in the afternoon (Think higher temps, and greater need for A/C). We plan our days to use washers and dryers, and the high draw appliances either early in the AM or later at night.
Time-of-Day pricing is a pain. During the summer, you really take it in the shorts if you need to do laundry or use your oven during peak hours (5-8 pm or thereabouts depending on what rate plan you are signed up for). You trade $$ for aggravation.
 

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2035 is 15 years away. Tesla has only been selling electric vehicles for 12 years and didn't sell it's first mass produced car (the Model S) until 2012. Battery technology is advancing rapidly, wind and solar power are already price competitive with electricity from fossil fuels, and renewables are only getting cheaper. I'd be shocked if the range, recharging, and electricity supply issues aren't resolved in the next decade, which only brings us to 2030.

The writing is on the wall for big oil. If you don't believe me, you should believe the stock market. Exxon stock has fallen 66% (from more than $100 per share to about $35 per share) in the past six years. BP and Royal Dutch Shell have also fallen 66% in the same time period. The Saudis are diversifying away from the oil business for good reasons.
 
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This is nonsense. People with generators don't "output back to the grid".
They aren't SUPPOSED to be. An improper installation without a transfer box will output back to the grid. After the hurricanes come through and knock out power the power crews will test the downed lines before touching them and if it is live will drive around until they hear a generator. Pretty good size fine for the person without a transfer box installed.
 

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My understanding about using generators during power outages is that folks plug directly into them - they shouldn’t be hooked up to try to power the entire house. Plugging a refrigerator directly into a generator is no problem. Plugging the generator into the house electrical system will also send electricity up the line and out into the grid (which makes it available for anyone to use), which is why you need that cut-off.

I recently watched a YouTuber that sort of chronicled and explained his process of getting a Tesla wall unit hooked up to his solar panels and his house, and then needing the cutoff switch installed in order to be able to run off his batteries when the power grid was down. Long-ish video, but instructive for understanding what a person will have to do to go off-grid.
 

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Right. If your house was done correctly, as mine was, the electrician installs the transfer switch and connect several circuits to it. So once I flip the switch to go from mains to generator the transfer switch only powers my kitchen (lights and outlets), my well, my living room, oil burning furnace. Once other lights in the house come on, I turn off the gen and switch back.
 

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2800 sq. Ft. Home. 100+ degree days. 2 a/c units. Source from PG&E, highest price per Kw in the country. Actual yearly usage $4600 For the elect part of the bill. Months vary depending on usage. Higher electric bills in the summer, lower in the winter.

Also we pay based on time of day. Higher per Kw in the 2-8pm bracket, less after 8pm. Our compensation from PG & E is also based on time of day.
Sound better?
Better. I reran with your PG&E rates (ballparking for off / peak difference) and get about $3500 per year from the panels. Note for those reading this, that's $3500 at very high electric rates, the same production at my house would be worth $1200.

I've got a similar size house, large workshop and barn (numerous space heaters and water tank heaters) and my annual bills are around $2800 so you have my sympathies. Maybe check into some additional insulation and get the energy usage down? When I bought this place it was using 900 gallons a year in heating oil. Added a bunch of insulation, sealing and a better furnace and got that down to 200.

Steve
 

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Oh, and since the Covid pandemic, Californians ar actually driving less mileage. Everyone is finally starting to realize that the " jumping the car, and go get it" isn't the most efficient thing to do. A friend who works at a local Toyota dealership says that people are driving less, so their service bays are empty some days.
The homeless population is exploding in California. They don't drive and and use very little electrical. This is one way the entire state can go green, a homeless population in most of the state.
 

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The homeless population is exploding in California. They don't drive and and use very little electrical. This is one way the entire state can go green, a homeless population in most of the state.
Here we go...
There are about 151,000 homeless people in California. The current total population is about 39.51 million. The arithmetic is left to the interested student.
 

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When the Liberals were in power they introduced solar energy in a big way and the bills to go with it. We don't get the sun of California, Nevada or other southern states, and big cold white stuff covers up the panels for about 4 months a ear. Due to incentives, somepeople locked into contracts at 65 cents per pwh when hydro electric was producing at under 4 cents and even nuclear was single digits, despite the price tag.
Now our federal government is going to bring in a second carbon tax that will boost the price of fuel by up to 25-30%. Further, considering increasing ethanol to 15% which will screw up lots of engines.
Electric cars can be great for local runs, but several owners of differenct e cars state they can't go 400 km between Ottawa and Toronto on a single charge. other vehicles are hybrid, with a gas engine to charge up the electric motors... kinds of self defeating.
Climate is changing; always has and always will. We discovered in early days of covid what happens when you shut down the economy totally, and that won't even get us to the target rate of carbon emissions some of these jokers are talking about.
 

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When the Liberals were in power they introduced solar energy in a big way and the bills to go with it. We don't get the sun of California, Nevada or other southern states, and big cold white stuff covers up the panels for about 4 months a ear. Due to incentives, somepeople locked into contracts at 65 cents per pwh when hydro electric was producing at under 4 cents and even nuclear was single digits, despite the price tag.
Now our federal government is going to bring in a second carbon tax that will boost the price of fuel by up to 25-30%. Further, considering increasing ethanol to 15% which will screw up lots of engines.
Electric cars can be great for local runs, but several owners of differenct e cars state they can't go 400 km between Ottawa and Toronto on a single charge. other vehicles are hybrid, with a gas engine to charge up the electric motors... kinds of self defeating.
Climate is changing; always has and always will. We discovered in early days of covid what happens when you shut down the economy totally, and that won't even get us to the target rate of carbon emissions some of these jokers are talking about.
Nothing but common sense in your last paragraph, something most politicians lack.
 

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Better. I reran with your PG&E rates (ballparking for off / peak difference) and get about $3500 per year from the panels. Note for those reading this, that's $3500 at very high electric rates, the same production at my house would be worth $1200.

I've got a similar size house, large workshop and barn (numerous space heaters and water tank heaters) and my annual bills are around $2800 so you have my sympathies. Maybe check into some additional insulation and get the energy usage down? When I bought this place it was using 900 gallons a year in heating oil. Added a bunch of insulation, sealing and a better furnace and got that down to 200.

Steve
Just read this:
 

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few things are perfectly good. Nothing about energy is entirely virtuous. Hydro electric power is "clean" and renewable, but when you dam rivers, you flood land and change the ecology. Nuclear energy is "clean" but you still have to deal with waste products. Still waiting to see more discussion on this type of energy: no application for cars, trucks or motorcycles that I can think of.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
They have hydrogen fueled engines, but they seem to have become lost. I did post about a small MC that had a self maintaining water pressure engine of some type. What ever will be used, the companies will want to continue their profits, so how they intend to do this remains to be seen. I see it basically as a sneaky way to introduce some sort of tax requirement to meet the goal.
 

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Just read this:
Don't need to. I've been reading up and studying this stuff for many years. Sadly all of the Green New Deal supporters don't have a clue or feel any need to learn anything about the subject other than what they get spoon fed on CNN. For example: try to talk to them about Trump taking us out of the Paris Climate Agreement. They go bananas about how Trump is going to destroy the planet because they don't have a clue about what it says or why it is a completely worthless agreement. Note - anyone here disagrees with that, go out and ACTUALLY READ THE AGREEMENT, cover to cover as I have. It's all a bunch of namby-pamby liberal bovine fecal matter EXCEPT for the part about how the USA and Western Europe have ruined the planet for everyone else by giving us a high standard of living so the USA and Western Europe should PAY THE MONEY for all the renewable and conservation projects around the world. Of course it's silly (oh, wait, it's racist) for Trump to think that if you give $200 million in cash to a corrupt, third world dictatorship that some (most) of that money might get sidetracked into private bank accounts.

Steve
 

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When the Liberals were in power they introduced solar energy in a big way and the bills to go with it. We don't get the sun of California, Nevada or other southern states, and big cold white stuff covers up the panels for about 4 months a ear. Due to incentives, somepeople locked into contracts at 65 cents per pwh when hydro electric was producing at under 4 cents and even nuclear was single digits, despite the price tag.
Now our federal government is going to bring in a second carbon tax that will boost the price of fuel by up to 25-30%. Further, considering increasing ethanol to 15% which will screw up lots of engines.
Electric cars can be great for local runs, but several owners of differenct e cars state they can't go 400 km between Ottawa and Toronto on a single charge. other vehicles are hybrid, with a gas engine to charge up the electric motors... kinds of self defeating.
Climate is changing; always has and always will. We discovered in early days of covid what happens when you shut down the economy totally, and that won't even get us to the target rate of carbon emissions some of these jokers are talking about.
An automotive writer for a local paper bought a Tesla. He loves it, but admits that by the time he added the long range battery and added a few options that $40,000 car ended up being $60,000. He was also disappointed to find out that the car does not actually achieve the advertised range if he drives the speed limit. To get the advertised range he needs to drive around 55mph on the expressway, which is just about suicidal in my area. He said that if he goes with the traffic flow it reduces his range by more than 30%. That is in good weather. This is a cold climate northern state. During the winter we often have to drive in the dark going to and from work. We also get a lot of snow, which frequently turns a 45 minute commute into a 2 hour commute. So we drive in the dark on a freezing night during a snowstorm, which means we run the headlights, the heater, and the windshield wipers. This isn't unusual; we have to deal with this regularly for 5-6 months per year. Getting stranded on the road is never fun, but it can be dangerous in bad winter weather. I don't see electric only vehicles being a realistic option for most people in cold climate states anytime soon.

I see the car companies are getting ready to push fully electric pickup trucks. They brag about performance and towing capacity. But whenever I read these articles, I think that people who actually use these vehicles for heavy towing are going to be very disappointed when they find out that the 300 mile advertised range suddenly turns into 125 miles.

I'm not against electric vehicles, not at all. I am a believer in free markets. Let companies build them and let people who want them, buy them voluntarily. But do not force car companies to prematurely stop selling conventionally powered vehicles as they will be needed for a long time in rural areas and in cold climate regions. EV's will improve over time. Give the car companies time to improve their products and to reduce prices until they are cheap enough and good enough for most of the public to want them.
 
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